AF Appearance Chronology

[Phil]

Right, there have been talks of this recently, and in fact as far back as I can remember we've dabbled with it.

It's often been asked for a timeline of Alpha appearances, breaking up issues into flashback sequences and multiple-story issues.

I know there are sites such as http://www.marvunapp.com/master/mastguid.htm
and http://chronologyproject.com/ but they tend to be per character and it'd be interesting to see our thoughts and reasoning as to what goes where.

Back on the old mailing list and board when we were doing our re-reading 'club' we hashed out a rough order of:

AF 5.5
2.5
3.5
-1 (Flashback issue)
6.5
(Volume 2) #1 (Flashback period)
Wolverine 144
Hulk 180, 181
Wolverine -1
AF 7.5
8.5
First Flight Special
9.5
Gt Sized X-Men #1 (I just read the Wolvie recruiting page and
moved on with this one.)
X-Men 109
AF 11.5
X-Men 120, 121
Hulk Annual #8
Contest Of Champions v1
Machine Man #18 / X-Men 139, 140 - Simulataneously
Hulk 272, 273
Alpha Flight #1
Marvel 2-In-1 83, 84
Hulk 279
Marvel 2-in-1 Ann 7
Rom 56, 57
Alpha Flight #2

Now I know at the time there was an issue over the ROM placement, and there have been a lot of comics published since we discussed this that would slot in, in places (Wolverine First Class, for example) and the placing of Wolverine #144 & Hulk 180-181 would need to be moved in light of Wolverine Origins / X-Men Legacy : Original Sin (although that conflicts with First Class...), but these were how we placed things in reading AF #1-2.

Any thoughts?
Is this worth restarting?
Anyone interested?

[Flightpath07]

is it worth restarting? Absolutely.

can i help? Well, no...but I will gladly applaud the efforts of those who can!

[Le Messor]

... I'll get back to you...

[Le Messor]

This is part 1, based on the catalogue of my collection (which I try to keep in chronological order). If anyone disagrees, feel free to tell me and I'll tell you why I'm right and you're wrong nyah nyah!
That last part was a joke.

I originally thought the origins should be in the same comics that featured the characters. But they weren't.

After a long time, I decided the only way to make sense of the .5s' order was to decide they were in chronological order. Looking at the above, 5.5 could work for me, though I think it covers a longer time period than that. (edit: when I typed that, I'd forgotten it was two separate issues. I've now moved 5.5 accordingly.)
That said, since I don't have doubles of most of them, I've just shoved these roughly into place just then.

Suggested order, part 1: Before the series:

Alpha Flight 5.5
Alpha Flight 2.5
Alpha Flight 3.5
Alpha Flight v.2 #-1
Wolverine: Origin of an X-Man - Mac has a small but important role, and Jeffries gets an origin
Wolverine #-1 - similar to Origin, above, the Hudsons are here as a framing story, picking up and dropping off Logan
Wolverine #144 - and again, this one ret-conning what happened right before Wolvie's first meeting with Hulk.
Incredible Hulk #s 180-181 - technical appearance only, but an important one. This is Wolverine's first appearance; he was, technically, a member of Alpha Flight at the time. This and Gt Size X-Men #1 are the two of these I'm counting.
Alpha Flight 6.5
Alpha Flight 7.5
Alpha Flight 8.5
First Flight Special
Alpha Flight 9.5
X-Men Origins: Wolverine #1 - different to the origins one above; this is largely a 'The story so far,' including the Hudsons finding Logan in the snow. In this one, Mac wasn't present when Charlie X recruited Logan (against Cl. Chasin's wishes); a couple of these stories ret-con it so he was.
Wolverine First Class #5 - a proto-Alpha consisting of Logan, Shaman, Snowbird, and Aurora fight Citadel, who dies. How he's around for v4, we don't know - though it's written by one of the same people. Also ends Charlie X recruits Logan (against Cl. Kinney's wishes)
Giant-Sized X-Men #1 - A double technical appearance; though not in this issue, it's sometimes ret-conned that Mac was there whent Charlie X recruited Logan (against Cl. Chasen's wishes); sometimes not. Either way, Logan started that scene as a member of AF.
Alpha Flight #10.5
Uncanny X-Men #109 / Classic #16 - Mac's first appearance.
Uncanny X-Men #120 - 121 / Classic #26 - 27 - The whole team's first appearance; the Classic version has extra pages of Mac, including bits with Heather.
Incredible Hulk ann 8 - Walt fights Hulk
Contest Of Champions #1 - 3 - Every superhero in the world fights each other; the whole team appears in #1, and Sas has a large role. But then, he's a large guy. He's on the cover of #s 1 & 3, and only symbolically in #2. There's a mini-Handbook in the back pages. Also, Talisman is in these, but this version is completely unrelated to our Talisman; is Australian, in fact.
Machine Man #18 / Uncanny X-Men #139 - 140 - Sas, Aurora, and Northstar fight then help Machine Man against Madame Masque in New York, while Logan and Kurt help Mac, Michael, and Narya against Wendigo. Heather's first appearance.
Incredible Hulk #272 - 273 - Walt and Hulk fight Wendigo in the first of these; Walt and Michael help with the clean-up in the second (but are only in the first few pages)
Alpha Flight #1
Marvel Two-In-One #83 - 84 - Thing needs Walt's help as a biochemist, fights Sas; then they get together with the team (minus Puck and Marrina, who hadn't been invented yet) to fight proto-Great Beast Ranark
Incredible Hulk #279 - Big crowd scene; Hulk gets accepted by the world, and AF is there. They make a mini-speech
Marvel Two-In-One ann 7 - The Champion takes on all the strong guys, including Sas who has a decent-sized role
Rom Spaceknight #56 - 58 - AF help Rom fight Wraiths in Canada. The final issue is one of those where they're still around to follow up the previous ones, but don't really have a role. Byrne covers on 56 and 57.
Alpha Flight #2

- Le Messor
"I have the heart of a little child and the brain of a genius - I keep them in a jar under my bed."

[Flightpath07]

Um...not meaning to sound stoopid (but I will), but what-the-heck is a ".5" issue of Alpha Flight? I feel so lost right now...

[Le Messor]

I read 'not meaning to sound stoopid', and knew exactly what your question would be.

They're the origin stories in the backs of Volume 1.

- Le Messor
Xander: ...stay here.
Buffy: I'd only be here for moral support.
Xander: ...but you can get the ho-ho's for us.
Giles: She's right, she should go.
Xander: ...but ho-ho's are a vital part of my thinking process.

[Flightpath07]

Ah. Gotcha. Thanx!

[Phil]

So; are we counting Wolverine:Origin Of An X-Man (FCBD) as canon then?
Does this clash with any of the Byrne origin of Madison?

[Le Messor]

So; are we counting Wolverine:Origin Of An X-Man (FCBD) as canon then?
Does this clash with any of the Byrne origin of Madison?

I am, but it's never occurred to me not to.
Do we have any particular reason?

Byrne never gave much of an origin for him to clash with. (Or first name, for that matter.) Just that he'd been digging ditches for a living and everybody thought he was dead - and that happened after he joined the 'Flight. (Also, I think Byrne implied he'd been a soldier, which Mantlo later spoke about definitively.)
This is, AFAIK, the first attempt to address it.

- Le Messor
"I've got ham, but I'm not a hamster!"
~ Bill Bailey

[Phil]

Yeah, it's more than meeting of Mac for the first time, though that's straying into Mantlo territory I suppose...

[Le Messor]

Yeah, it's more than meeting of Mac for the first time, though that's straying into Mantlo territory I suppose...

I don't remember that ever being mentioned before?

- Le Messor
"Pardon me, but why is Lt. Barclay being clandestinely described as a vegetable?"
~ Data

[rplass]

So; are we counting Wolverine:Origin Of An X-Man (FCBD) as canon then?
Does this clash with any of the Byrne origin of Madison?

No clash with the Byrne origin, no. The clash is Mantlo's with Byrne. I mentioned this on my site, where I posted about this issue:

Not much had been known about his recruitment until now, except for the known continuity errors on Mantlo’s part in Alpha Flight #46, when Jeffries mentions to Kara, “Bochssie an’ I go ‘way ‘way back, before we was Betans, even”, contradicting what we know of their first meeting in Alpha Flight #16 and the fact that Jeffries was never in Beta Flight.

There is also a minor clash with the Alpha Flight Special - at the end of the FCBD, the military brass makes a decision about funding:

Interestingly, Wolverine's success in this mission results in "the brass" authorizing the first round of funding for Alpha Flight, a name which is misplaced by Mac's enthusiasm, as the first team formed was just "The Flight", and the teams divided into lettered tiers later on.

But nothing in conflict with Byrne. I'd consider it canon.

Love,
rplass

[Phil]

Note that this clinic is likely NOT the “The Clinic for Socially Maladjusted Super- Beings”, the name Puck jokingly gives to Beta and Gamma Flights.

It could quite easily be made to be the same clinic, but again that'd give credit to #46 which as you've pointed out is just all over the place in terms of contradicting #16, so #46 may as well be completely ignored.

The ending however doesn't mesh with Wolverine #144.

EDIT: Wolverine #144 doesn't however work with the First Flight Special either, and remembering back the Wolverine at that time was actually a Skrull, so I reckon that #144 isn't actually canon and is just the Skrull spinning DumDum a tale.

Which means that ignoring Mantlo's #46, the FCBD story still works.

What was the contradiction with the First Flight special?

[Le Messor]

Note that this clinic is likely NOT the “The Clinic for Socially Maladjusted Super- Beings”, the name Puck jokingly gives to Beta and Gamma Flights.

I've always taken that line literally, but that interpretation works well.

What was the contradiction with the First Flight special?

That the team was called Alpha Flight from the beginning, not simply The Flight.

- Le Messor
"I hope someday you know the indescribable joy of having children, and of paying someone else to raise them."
~ Gomez

[Phil]

That the team was called Alpha Flight from the beginning, not simply The Flight.

At least that's just a slight niggle that can either be ignored or probably written off as Mac's enthusiasm and that he always originally intended for it to be called Alpha Flight, but got changed to The Flight or something, rather than something that greatly clashes with continuity.

I'm happy with it counting as canon.

Anyone else's thoughts on Wolverine #144?